What is science？What is technology？

Lu Bai:Let me make an opening remarks first.Many scientific and technological coffees, investors, and entrepreneurs have a very proud say when talking about science: you see me doing artificial intelligence, chip, and DNA sequencing detection. This is science.After hearing this, I started to worry about it, and even the elites of society confused science and technology.Therefore“What is science? What is technology?”I have a stomach to say.

Zhang Shuangnan:We start with the more familiar issues and the problem of Lee Joseph.Joseph is a historical expert in Britain and has written a lot of books for Chinese scientific and technological history.He found that ancient Chinese technology and culture were very developed.But it is clear that we have no science in China.Our knowledge of science textbooks from childhood to university comes from the West, including our mathematics, physics, and chemistry comes from the West. Why?

In ancient China, we had very good techniques, four major inventions.When Li Joseph asked “why China does not have science”, it does not think that the four major inventions of ancient China were science.What is science?simply speakingThe truth behind technology is science.Newton’s law, Einstein’s theory of relativity, and quantum mechanics, and various biological laws. These laws are science, whileRegular application is technologyThis is a difference in science and technology.

Sometimes the two are not very distinguished during the research process.The research technology found the truth behind, and at this time became science; research science became a regular application, and this application became technology.Some scientific impacts on technology are very profound. For example, Newton has made the law of Newton’s three laws and the laws of gravity. There is really no application. Application is very late.

At that time, he was concerned about how the celestial bodies were operated in the solar system. He found that Newton’s three laws and gravity laws could accurately explain the movement of the solar system. The truth behind this was science.

Quantum mechanics and relativity science were discovered a hundred years ago. Their application has gradually begun to show its power today, which is different from science and technical performance.

　 　　

Tang Chao:Just now Zhang Shuangnan talked about the four major inventions. One of them was a compass. The compass was a invention and can also be called technology, but it did not become science in China.Our ancestors did not ask, “Why is there a compass? What is the magnetic? Is there any law?” There was no question why.

There is no application purpose of Western Anders of Anti, Faraday, and playing magnetic fields. It is very interesting. It is found that there are some rules and began to summarize.At Maxwell, I summarized the entire science of electromagnetics -until this time there was no application.

However, after Maxwell’s equations come out, they can be used for electromagnetic waves to communicate. Now all communication is basically based on the Maxwell equations, including TV, telephone, mobile phone, and so on.

can be seen,Technology cannot replace scienceIf there is no scientific breakthrough, technology can only stay in the compass. Although it is also useful, no one can think of the current communication age.

Just now Zhang Shuangnan talked about quantum mechanics. How did you discover quantum mechanics?It is not because everyone has to do technology, innovation, etc., it was a group of physicists at that time to discover black radiation in aimless place -just like you (in a place with light) in the dark placeThey are all black, in fact, you are also radiating some different electromagnetic wave spectrals.

However, after measuring the distribution of this spectrum, it is found that the statistical physics based on the classic on the basis of Newtonian mechanics is very different.Everyone feels strange, what’s going on?Therefore, it was completely out of curiosity, and later discovered quantum mechanics.

There is also the discovery of relativity -Einstein asked when I was very young, what would I look like if I followed the light?Later, I found that the speed of light is unchanged. You can never catch up with light. No matter how fast you run, the light is fast.

Quantum mechanics and relativity discovery basically laid the foundation of all our technologies, including superconducting, semiconductor, Internet technology, all based on quantum mechanics, relativity, and Maxwell equations.

Picture | Lu Bai

Lu Bai:I think of a question, how is human civilization and history be promoted?Is it scientific or technological?Some people say that Watt’s steam engine has created an industrial revolution; some people say that Edison is the greatest scientist, because he has a lot of inventions, including electric lights that promote historical development; others say that the Internet is a driving force for historical development.I want to listen to the views of the two.

　 　　

Zhang Shuangnan:Of course, Edison is very great, is a great scientist, or a great engineer, and has different opinions.So when I met in Shenzhen last time, someone said that Ai Disheng was his most admired scientist, and I asked Lu Bai on WeChat. Is Edison a scientist?Lu Bai immediately returned to me and said, no,Edison is not a scientist. Edison is a very outstanding engineer and inventor.This is relatively clear.

To what extent is the advanced technology in today’s society?We can create rockets and satellites. These were not invented by Edison.It is necessary to rely on Newton’s mechanical theory to calculate the track and carry out various mechanical design. Our bridge and architecture, all the mechanical foundations behind all these designs are Newtonian mechanics; the aircraft also consider the effect of relativity in the solar system.

More accurate, more magnificent, and more advanced technology behind technology.Of course we need very good engineers and inventors to have a lot of innovation, butThis does not mean that technology can replace science as an important role behind it.

Tang Chao:Technology is of course very important. First of all, technology enables scientific achievements to benefit humans and benefit society.Secondly, technology can often promote the discovery of new science.For example, because computer technology and Internet technology are getting better and better, there are big data now, so there is data science.Although (people) are mainly technology now, I believe that the research of data itself may bring new science and challenge mathematics itself.Artificial intelligence technology may become a science later.Technology itself may also promote scientific development.

Lu Bai:Some people say that science is great, but the intensity that needs to be invested is too great. The time to wait is too long. Can China develop technology and let those developed countries in the United States do science.Its scientific applications come to develop our economy.Can a country be scientific and only developed technology?

Tang Chao:Technology can directly affect the national economy and people’s livelihood.It is okay to look at this in the short term.As a big country, it is very disapproval,In the long run, we must calm down the science of heart development.

Zhang Shuangnan:China is a big country and an ancient civilization. Today we have repeatedly emphasized that our country must be confident, one of which is cultural self -confidence.It is impossible to deny that science is already a very important part of human culture. When we and our next generation study science,If the textbooks are always the name of foreigners, where can our nation self -confidence find it?At least from this point, it is also very important.

In addition to national self -confidence, research science is obviously practical.

There is no doubt that the most developed country in the world is the United States, and most of the most important scientific achievements in modern times are from the United States. This is not an accident, and it is inevitable.

If we want to maintain prosperity for a long time and be proud of being a Chinese, we also need to make our contribution in this part of this part of human civilization.Can’t always use other people’s knowledge to make products to sell to make moneyI want to be like this as a nation.

Picture | Zhang Shuangnan

Lu Bai:I just said an example of the United States.From a historical perspective, how does it rise from Britain?Why is it behind?How does the United States still maintain the world’s leading advantage so far?Another reference is Japan. Many years ago, its national strength had approached the United States, and it exceeded the posture of the United States.Looking back on these countries, there may be some reference to China.

Tang Chao:The true rise of the United States is after World War II, although it was also good in the colonial period. At that time, Europe was the mainstream and the United States was a small barren island. At that time, there were Franklin and Jefferson.The so -called scientific tradition is to play and study nature from curiosity without purpose.

After the founding of the United States, because of economic development, it has a strong purpose, so at that time, applied science replaced basic science. For a long time, there was basically a century.The United States is too anxious.

During World War II, a large number of scientists immigrated from Europe to the United States, and the United States used the technology brought by science and science to help them win the war. The entire United States suddenly realized:Science is useful, science can win, and we are destroyed without science.Therefore, from that time, it has been very enthusiastic about science and its system, and its advantages have continued to the present.

Japan is a good example, that is, the technical development is very good. It can do anything better than others.In fact, when Japan was very worried, they were worried that they had no stamina, so they invested a lot about science. There were a large number of scientists who could do their own things with solid and peace of mind. This is why Japan has a Nobel Prize in recent years.Essence

However, I think that the real science and innovation sciences, such as quantum mechanics, relativity, and Newton’s laws, need more changes in Japan.Not only the problem of investment, but also the problem of culture, is social and culture specially encouraged these issues of scientific innovation.

Zhang Shuangnan:I really agree that Teacher Tang Chao just said that compared with Japan and the United States, you can see that Japanese people often do well in terms of products, but disruptive technological innovations come from Japan less, most of them come from the United States.

Why do Americans have the ability to disruptive innovation?I think this is very related to the culture of the United States, especially the culture of pursuing laws and science.Outstanding people all over the world are searched by it–These people are with the spirit of innovation. This innovation spirit has brought scientific innovation and scientific Nobel Prize, and also brings technological innovation.

Before the United States, many disruptive technology innovations came from Britain.The scientific revolution that started from Newton was in the UK, leading to the revolution of its industry, just as the American scientific revolution led to its technology revolution.

I wrote an article in 2012. The last part of the title is called “How China Lead the World”, which analyzes the scientific development of China’s scientific development.Why is Chinese backward science?Our cultural soil now seems to be very unfavorable to the development of science, so I said that Chinese science within the short term should not be mentioned in the United States, and there is still some difficulties in Europe and Japan.

Under this situation is not so easy to produce in China.So in that article, I said that the economic level has been from the cottage economy, and now it is a relatively good stage of products. If you want to take another layer in the next stage, it will be difficult to have disruptive innovation.Very big.If you want to lead, you must have a highly innovative ability, and it will have a close relationship with China’s future scientific development.

Lu Bai:One of the contents that Zhang Shuangnan just said is very important: science is actually a culture, part of a civilization, and a very important part.In addition to scientific leading technology, there is also a scientific exploration method, the spirit of science, and the scientific thought.

Science is a science of verification, a science that is reasonable in accordance with logical reasoning. It may be inconsistent with our traditional culture including Chinese traditional culture, including our modern impetuousness, and relatively quick success.Can the two say from this perspective?

Zhang Shuangnan:A few days ago I told a few stories in CCTV’s “Open”, one of which was my own.I graduated from Tsinghua University undergraduate, went to the Chinese Academy of Sciences for two years, and studied in the UK -I was shocked to study in the UK.

When discussing my research work with my classmates, they often asked: What is the science of doing this work?I don’t know what they ask at all, because I have studied physics, chemistry, and creatures, but no one has never told me what science is.

Our education system is not as good as scientific education. It just teaches you scientific knowledge. It is useful for the college in middle school. It is useful to go to the university to find a job.,is useful.But what is science?No one has taught me.

After I arrived in the United States, my child started to school. I saw that there were these problems in their textbooks in elementary school and middle school, and something I knew after I arrived in the UK.Our culture does not teach these, but teaches very practical things, but the way of thinking does not teach. This is a big difference in our culture.

Tang Chao:Another difference isChinese culture is more particularly harmonious and practical, and science pays attention to personal innovation. If you want to be different from others, you have to make a difference. These two are a bit incompatible.Just now Zhang Shuangnan said that the purpose of our study from elementary school and middle school to college is not to say that it is necessary to learn a culture, so that science is a culture, a life outlook, and affecting a lifetime, but is particularly utilitarian.

Lu Bai’s culture is particularly important. I personally think that “Mr. Sai” may not stand still in China. This may be the original intention of Lu Bai to participate in the founding of “Mr. Sai” at that time. This is a big problem accumulated for a long time.It is not very useful for individual scientists to talk about. Of course, we can propagate, but this is a problem of systems from top to bottom, including the system of government and education system. The more people think about this problem, the faster it may be solved.

Zhang Shuangnan:Let me add the problem that the “Mr. Sai” you mentioned has not yet settled in China.There are several scientific enlightenment campaigns in China. Once in the Ming and Qing Dynasties, it was systematically introduced to the science that the West had just developed at that time, but it quickly lost interest and felt that it was useless to China.

The next time I arrived at the “May 4th” period, I started to lead “Mr. Sai” and “Mr. De” to China again, but at that time, China faced the problem of national survival.Failed.

The later scientific enlightenment should be after the Cultural Revolution, and there was no particular success. At that time, we just started to solve the problem of food and clothing in the market economy.Maybe it’s time for the next scientific enlightenment now.

Lu Bai:Do you think this time is now?

Zhang Shuangnan: I think it’s time now, we basically solve the problem of food and clothing, and the problem of national survival is also solved. What needs to be solved now isHow does China continue to develop and become the leaders of the world?When solving these two problems, it is obviously very scientific.

I feel that science and culture will have a market in China soon, especially if we can make education well -we already have the foundation of economy.I think Chinese science is still very promising.

Lu Bai:I think it’s still very challenging.Because when a person tastes the sweetness of success, he thinks that there will always be sweetness in doing so.For decades of reform and opening up, this kind of behavior that wants to do everything to achieve the goal has gradually formed a utilitarian fashion, which has become a factor that is quite unfavorable to advocating scientific ideas and respecting science and culture.

Zhang Shuangnan:I think we also need to understand reality.The three of us are highly idealists, and they are also realists. This is the reality in China.

Back to the article I wrote in 2012, we must vigorously develop science.Science.

However, in our culture, the people will ask what benefits of so much money to bring me. Although intellectuals, scientists, and governments all feel that they need to do this, after allIn science, we must also bring some benefits to the people through the sciences we do now, so that everyone will support science.

Let everyone feel that science is a good thing, and it can also get some benefits. It is very important for China. It may also be the scientific development of China at this stage, which is different from the United States.　

Tang Chao:There may be a favorable condition. In fact, even if the Chinese are ordinary people, they still have a sense of sacredness in science and are very interested. Although they are not very clear about what science is, it always feels that science is very good.The two, including myself, often make some popular science reports. It can be found that everyone’s enthusiasm is quite high. Maybe this enthusiasm can slowly become actual action in the future.

Figure | Tang Chao

Lu Bai:Some scientists often say what is the use of this science. The purpose is to be recognized by the people and even the government, and I can get more funds.Therefore, scientists have a certain responsibility as a group itself, which emphasizes the useful use of science.

Science and useful transformation into technology and then transforming into economic benefits, but in fact, science is driven by curiosity in many cases, at least half of itScience is useless for a long timeEssenceBut this does not prevent us from having such a need to explore the unknown world, explore accumulation of knowledge, and create knowledge. This is the needs of human beings.

Therefore, is it that scientists need to be self -evident by themselves?Did you emphasize the use of science too much?Science itself is human thought, the civilization of human beings, and we are not known to exploreThe very interesting activity itself is something that everyone needs to support the entire society.

Zhang Shuangnan:My main research is to study black holes and the evolution of the universe. These things are not very useful.But can we also ask, what is the use of art?What is the use of music?

These are not useful, but everyone likes it.If we let everyone like science, then like it is one of the purpose.People do not only need to eat, but people also have spiritual activities.If science becomes part of our spiritual activity, it will be usefulFrom this perspective.

From another perspective -I do such a story when I do popular science. Putin has been the Prime Minister. He managed the astronomical project (research of dark energy) in cooperation between Russia and Germany. When listening to the report, Putin said that the dark energy is veryFun, useful and useless, danger is not dangerous?

Russian scientists cannot answer this question.German scientists are very smart, saying that Prime Minister Putin, if you have asked Einstein’s theory of relativity a hundred years ago, it is not dangerous, Einstein will say you don’t know.But today we know that this relativity is useful (dangerous).Therefore, it is a reason for asking for many sciences such as dark energy. It is not dangerous.This is a matter of future. Now we just want to figure out this matter.It is very happy to figure out that people are very happy, so that these happy and appreciation into a culture are good.　

Tang Chao:If you recall any subversive technology that has revolutionized the entire human society, it is based on the scientific invention of decades or even hundreds of years ago. At that time, the invention and discovery were completely curious.

Therefore, the useful problems of science should not be oversight.Just now Lu Bai said that science is actually a spirit and a culture. Just like we have artists, musicians, art and music are the highest pursuit of many people. This is a understanding of nature.EssenceScience is just more accurate. This spiritual pursuit should also become part of our culture.